Friday, 22 January 2010

Muslims in Mecca

I read this article and it made me sad, and made me think:

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100120/BUSINESS/701209871/1186/enewsletter

They are opening a brand new luxury hotel in Mecca, Saudi Arabia and the VIPs from the hotel's management cannot attend the ceremony since they are not Muslims. Perhaps they should consider temporary conversion, just like some Muslims use temporary marriage to justify sex with prostitutes. Both are frowned upon obviously, and I'm sure that the former is punishable by some pretty painful stuff in Sharia law.

Anyway, the point of this post is why does Mecca exclude non-Muslims from visiting? It even gives Iranians a lot of difficulty because they are Shia Muslims and considered almost from a different faith.

Why does Saudi Arabia have the right to apply this rule? Isn't Mecca (and Madina) Muslim cities for all the Muslims? Why shouldn't Muslims have a say about this, and I don't mean only those in the Saudi Government? I am sure that moderates in Iran, Morocco, the UAE, and Egypt would allow non-Muslims. After all, the big mosques in those countries are all open to non-Muslims.

What does this say about Muslims and Islam? We have something to hide? Of course so! I've been to the Vatican and La Sagrada Famiglia and probably a hundred churches and a few synagogues too. They don't ask for your faith, but for your respect. Most mosques actively welcome non-Muslims, but again, they ask for your respect.


(Image taken by BuJ, Barcelona, Catalan, Espana 2007)

I'm sure that the Prophet (PBUH) would support this, because he never actually banned peaceful non-Muslims from Mecca or Madina. In fact he actively traded with Jews and respected Christians (who respected him back). Jews and Christians are considered "people of the book" and should be protected in Islam. All of Judaism's and Christianity's prophets are revered in Islam.

Perhaps it's time for Saudi Arabia to wisen up, and open up.

41 comments:

Jazzical Aficionado said...

Perhaps they should consider temporary conversation

Bro, you rarely write without a flaw but this time, I gotcha! And I'm going to cherish my 15 Minutes.

How are you?

What's conversation?

Jazzical Aficionado said...

Catherine and I had visited the Sheikh Zayed Mosque in Abu-Dhabi many times. I wish I could describe in words the peace & serenity that we felt while we were there along with her parents. She used to call it a divine experience!

BuJ said...

oh Louis... you're worse than my father!!!! he keeps correcting my (its) and (it's) agggh!!!!

it's not a typo, it's a completely wrong word.. oh well.. i also do it sometimes with (-ing) at the end of nouns to make them verbs.. it's not flattering!

Glad you mentioned the SZ mosque.. it's a masterpiece and i love it (mind u the escalators to the downstairs toilets doesnt work).. but it's a true wonder of the world.


Again, it's open for all religions!

Balqis said...

Makkah is for pilgrimage, not for tourism
Other faiths have their rules

BuJ said...

Balqis, this should be educational and not tourism.

The Prophet PBUH never banned non-Muslims from Mecca except those who publicly fought against him.

If we keep it closed, then it's as if we have something to hide, and it's the most beautiful shrine in the world.

Balqis said...

We can educate people through lectures
There's no need to change the religion to please others

BuJ said...

my dear, i am glad u mentioned educating through lectures, coz i think we need to start with muslims.

i challenge you to bring me an islamic text (quran or confirmed sunna) that bans non-muslims from mecca.

no need to change religion, because that ban is not from our religion.

Balqis said...

Saudi scholars if am not mistaken take the verses from sura at tawba as evidence
In Prophet Muhammad pbuh times the religion hadn't been revealed completely and he and the companions were the only and greatest source of knowledge
Actually Islam spread throughout the world and there are many converts who are also great scholars
The challenge today is to explain to the world that Islam is not a threat and that its socio-political approach change if practiced in a non Muslim country, which is why Muslims in Europe can't ask for sharia
Also the culture of a country is not exactly the same of the religion but when the two mix up then we have holy wars and honour killings and this must be explained to Muslims and non Muslims as well
A visit to Makkah and other holy places in Saudi Arabia would not serve the purpose, rather would generate confusion because it will give the idea that those are places to venerate and there's already too many Muslims indulging in such practices
Given also the great flow of pilgrims , it would be impractical as well
And the non Muslim would be interested in art or history, definitely not in the religion

BuJ said...

i'm interested in the specific aya in surat al tawba.

there's an inherent conflict or oxymoron.. the words saudi scholars are not a good combination.

anyway what do i know?! i just think if we are more transparent and give people the choice to visit us then that would make us more civilised.

same thing happens with niqab, so many people say its islamic and others say its cultural. saudi scholards will probably say its both.

Balqis said...

There are different opinions on everything in Islam and that's a blessing cause we have a choice
Niqab is one of those issues
Makkah is the centre of our lives but I don't think turning into a tourist site would make us more transparent
We can explain the religion in every moment and time, at school, work place, on the beach

BuJ said...

why are you blindly dismissing everything i say? i never wished that mecca become a tourist destination to muslims or non muslims. in fact i support tougher quotas on pilgrims, and a complete ban on people that do hajj more than once a life.

charities should be set up to funnel these funds and saudi scholards should explain to people that doing hajj more than once is unnecessary and perhaps you wanna put money in this fund that allows poorer muslims to perform the hajj.. how about that?

they should also explain that this is a halal activity.

Balqis said...

Non Muslims want to go to Makkah only because is forbidden and they expect to find there what they find at the Vatican, that is shops and souvenirs That's what I gather when people ask me
Even if one allows them a visit, at a certain point either it will fail, because there's no painting or statue and nothing to show off, or you will have to introduce all the things that attract tourism
A ban cannot be put because there are people who go to perform Hajj on behalf of their parents
Poor people are supported, at least on papers, by zakat in each country
If one can't afford, he is exempted, which means there's no fault on him
It's tough for a Muslim not to go for pilgrimage but he is obeying the orders of God

rosh said...

"Non Muslims want to go to Makkah only because is forbidden and they expect to find there what they find at the Vatican,"

Balqis: I say this most respectfully, you couldn't be MORE wrong. A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.

Nicely said BuJ. We as human beings do not need further borders and walls -- we've created enough for centuries to come, despite being created by the same creator.

Being a Christian, born / raised in an Arab & Muslim nation, I have to say one of the most serene moments is the call for prayer. All worries vanish at that point in time.

Media Junkie said...

...it's so that they can contine to show the West how intolerant we are.

(PS: I was being sarcastic)

Also, as I have no male sponsor or mahram, I cannot do Hajj.

go figure.

Stimulus said...

LOL interesting debate..

I don't know about banning it as a result of Islamic orders (e.g. Quran verses or Prophet's sayings) but what I knew is that at some point in time there were great threats against Muslims, where a group of people wanted to destroy the Ka'ba in Makka. I'm guessing that's how the banning of non-Muslims started, but whether it should still continue is another matter.

I personally believe non-Muslims should be allowed to enter (it would in fact benefit Muslims and might help non-Muslims understand the religion better). However, there should also be some kind of strict procedures for non-Muslims to fight the political threats. But as you said, "temporary conversion" would be an easy solution...

nzm said...

I would want to go to Mecca to see that amazing building - and to pay my respects, as I do in all places of worship that I visit.

Didn't get to see the Zayed Mosque in AUD before we left the UAE as it wasn't finished, but would love to get there whenever we next visit the country.

BuJ - I know what you're saying about muslims visiting churches around the world - even though La Sagrada Familia is not yet a consecrated church! We have visited many places of worship around the world, and it gives me a great sense of pleasure to see muslim people in Christian churches, because I believe that it means that there is a lot of openness on both sides - from the churches allowing all to enter and from muslims who are wanting to learn more about another religion.

When we visited the Kolner Dom in Cologne, Germany, we climbed up the many stairs in one of the spires to look at the view. On the way down, we met a young muslim couple making their way up. As it was Ramadan, I wished them Ramadan Kareem. Their faces lit up and we were rewarded with thank yous and huge smiles.

It was one of those moments when, if you over-think about the situation and location, (Germany, two Arab muslims, a New Zealander, a German, Catholic church, in a tight spiral staircase), it seems really funny - but that's life!

If it helps to create peace and understanding, then I'm all for it. I know that there are a lot of people like me who would love to visit Mecca to see and experience the place to gain more understanding and knowledge.

But then, I'm a woman and that's another story in Saudi!!!! ;.)

BuJ said...

ah, thanks Rosh.. i needed some voice of temperament and wisdom here..

Media Junkie.. u know u can do omra and hajj now without a me7rem if u go with a group? it's not a big deal. a female friend of mine went twice without having a me7rem

Balqis, you're a smart lady, but just stating your opinion doesn't transform it into a fact.

How can you even think of saying that non-Muslims goto mecca expecting something like the vatican?

sorry, but this is completely untrue. i went to both and mecca and the vatican have very little in common.

mecca is all about simplicity and the vatican is all about showing off. it's also a museum. while mecca has a lot of history, it doesn't really make an effort to display it.

why can't u entertain the idea that people might have a neutral interest in islam? a respectful interest. not many non-muslim people would want to go inside a mosque. likewise not many gentiles would want to go inside a synagogue. however, the small minority that do, don't go as tourists, but go with an open mind perhaps to learn something.

as Mr Rosh said, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.. so i guess one has to aim to get as much knowledge as possible. especially about other peoples and religions. we have to be more open.

BuJ said...

salam Stimulus.. thanks for that input.. do u have more details about the nature of the threat. i am sure ur right coz i heard a similar thing ages ago and it also makes logical sense but some dates would be useful.

personally i won't feel violated if they bomb the holy mosque in mecca to bits. we'll just rebuild it and continue to pray towards it.

islam is flexible and islam has been attacked since it was born. it is not the end of the world if the kaaba is down.. the concept will be alive in our heart. after all that's why we don't believe in idols.. if we do, then we'll hurt if the kaaba went down,as an idolator would do.

muslims should be stronger than that. we have to do the basic homework to prevent terrorism, but how many VIP churches or mosques get blown every year? not many, at least in countries not occupied by the usa!

anyway.. the publicity from such an event would be great, and help the image of muslims worldwide. the images would be more powerful than the 911 images.

NZM, i respect every single word u posted in ur comment, honestly, this is why i believe mecca should open its arms. it's such a stark paradox to arab hospitality, innit?

also u reminded me with a story when i was queuing to enter the vatican for the first time. there were a korean couple (both male) in front of me and i started to talk to them while we were inching towards the metal detectors. we exchanged nationalities and they asked if i were muslim. i said yes. they then got very offended and wished i didn't enter! they suggested i find a mosque in rome instead!!!!!

i guess such sentiment is normal in a certain segment of people, as we have seen with the comments here, but at the end of the day, the vatican still opens its doors to everyone regardless of religion.

(i didnt wanna ask them if they knew how catholicism got to korea or what the church thought about homosexuality... but that's another topic)

very cute story about the ramadan kareem in a german church.. that's what i am talking about! bless u nzm!

btw, NZM, if u have any questions about the holy mosques please feel free to ask me here or via my e-mail.. nothing is taboo. education is a standard, not a privilege!

BuJ said...

PS, nzm, tssk tssk! no need to mention the technicalities of la sagrada! it's a catholic construction site!! ok?

u forget i'm a structural engineer, where else did u expect me to visit?!?!

i have been to numerous consecrated churches all over europe.. and even to a synagogue. that was fun! i was frisked by an ex mossad guy.. not fun.. but i told them i was muslim and was still allowed in after wearing a skull cap!

Media Junkie said...

that's good to know :) thank you.

Balqis said...

Whatever their reasons are, I do not see why we must open the doors of Makkah because other religions do this with their buikdings
We have our rules because they were given by God
This is a trend I noticed among many Muslims : to adopt way which are not from Islam to make our religion nice to their eyes
The fact that we are in troubled times and must explain to people that Islam is not source of hatred and violence, is not a good reason to open the doors to innovation
When they ask about Makkah we can explain them why we turn to it praying 5 times a day and why we go there for pilgrimage
If theyu're interested in knowledge let's explain them the importance to venerate one God, the only worth of worship
In other words, let's stick to our religion and to the way of the Prophet
No need for traditions that do not belong to ours

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

Oh stop being a hippy. Mecca and Medina are Suadi cities under suadi rule, They can make up the rules as they wish. If you dont like them, simply dont go there.

As for WHY they exclude people of different faiths, I dont think its a bad thing, Mecca is already way too crowded with just the faithful there, can you imagine the chaos if tourists were allowed in? People DIE there now, imagine with even more crowds.

As for the Shia being treated as a different faith, They are. Shi3a are NOT muslim. No just my opinion mind you, As I recall, one of the 4 sunni mathrabs excludes the she3a as muslims, yes?

If I were in charge of mecca, I'd shoot the shi3a on sight and put their heads up on poles right at the outskirts of the city with huge banners stating "WAH HUSSAIN INDEED!"

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

Balqis said...
There are different opinions on everything in Islam and that's a blessing cause we have a choice

I totally disagree. We NEED a pope like feature. Like Umar in his time. Someone who was the "Marja3" if you will.

I live n a world where a whore like Haifa Wehbi can call herself a Muslim. Its not a blessing, its a tragedy. We need ONE clear cut set of criteria. If you dont follow them you get your head chopped off.

THAT would be a blessing.

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

In other words, let's stick to our religion and to the way of the Prophet
No need for traditions that do not belong to ours

Well said! But those traditions or norms that arent ours bring in the cash today, and that is more important than our religion today, didnt you know?

BuJ said...

it's great how this post made people open up their intolerances and incorrect facts to the world.

opening up is a good thing, but not in this way.

we cannot do as we please, and just use the lame excuse that this is what God wants. Where is the proof?

A bit like what the Prophet Abraham suffered from, when he asked his people why are you idolators, and they answered that that is how they found their fathers doing.

Thus religion to them was incorrect tradition rather than logic and fact. This is very much true today with a lot of so called Muslims.

ABIT.. can you seee what you're saying? The post is not about me, it's about non-Muslims. But now that you mentioned it, I really do not enjoy going to Saudi at all, and keep my trips there to a minimum.

As for your statement, well technically you're correct, but the Saudis do not own Mecca or the Holy Mosques, the King there calls himself the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, so by their own admission, they just take care of it on behalf of the Muslims, who ultimately revere it, rather than own it.

A mosque ultimately is a house of God, and humans cannot lay claims to it.

Or am I mistaken?

BTW, ABIT, the Prophet never banned peaceful non-Muslims from Mecca. The ban came after he died.

nzm said...

BuJ: just kidding you with the Sagrada Familia details - of course you had to go there - as an engineer, as a scholar and as a gentleman! As I now live in Barcelona, it's become a favourite spot for me and I've been there about 6 times over the past 11 months to show it to our guests. I love going there to photograph its progression. It's the only cathedral started over a century ago that is still being worked on. I always think of "Pillars of the Earth" when I go there!

Thank you so much for your offer of knowledge-sharing - I know that you have offered it before and I have yet to take you up on it. I just came up with the great idea of, if and when we get back to the UAE, I would love to invite you to join us for a visit to the Sh. Zayed Mosque, as I'm sure that you would have so much more insight into the building and its purpose than we could gather on our own. I'll let you know if we do make it back sometime!

I'm sorry that you got that reaction from the Korean men. Perhaps they should look to their own country before casting stones in any other direction!

I read an article in The National today, called Keys to the kingdom of Saud It seems that some parts of the country are being opened to outsiders - the educated travellers. As is often the case, it appears that while one hand (the hotel example) closes the door, the other hand (respectful tourism) is attempting to keep it open, yes?

SiSi said...

So far the only commentator I agree with is nzm.
balqis...surely the whole idea of expanding the umma and opening our arms to converts and those who wish to be enlightened means that we can mot make our institutions exclusive.

From personal experience I have found it extremely enlightening to visit all places of worship and try to learn as much of other faiths as possible. By shutting ourselves off from the outside world we can never hope to achieve complete understanding of 'them' nor for 'them' to understand 'us' and I believe that is precisely why the world is in the mess it is in today.

Balqis said...

lol@Blessing
We missed an Emarati al Areefi
I am not intolerant because I
I don't want to compromise my beliefs to prove that OBL does not represent me
I don't need to parrot other cultures and religions to show the blessings of Islam
Innovation
That's all I get from this post and most of its comments
We are ashamed of our traditions
I am not judging but the Prophet pbuh had predicted this
Up to us to solve the problem

nzm said...

Balqis: you say that you have your rules because they were given by God, and that Mecca should not be opened to foreigners because of them. I'm sorry, I don't follow your reasoning here, and I’ll explain why.

BuJ mentions that Prophet Mohammed treated all men equally - Jews, Muslim, Christians alike - and in return was respected by them. (I have read the same thing in my quests to find out more about the prophet.) That is the true word of God - to respect all peoples and creatures, and for that respect to be returned.

With respect comes learning, transparency and tolerance.

Surely if any man received a message from Allah telling him not to receive or respect people of other religions, than it would have been the great prophet himself?

If God told the prophet not to respect people of other religions and to shut them out, did the prophet then disobey God as he continued to follow his heart?

I think that you will find (if you look deeply and are prepared to accept another viewpoint), that the original, pure meaning of the words of God – the words that the Prophet received - have been re-translated and skewed by (evil and selfish) men to suit their own purposes!

From my understanding, reading and learning as much as I can find, the "mystery" surrounding Mecca has been put in place by men who wish to use it for their own purposes - power, control, whatever. Just as the Vatican uses their city as a powerbase.

They use God as their excuse to build up their own empires. The call for believers to visit the holy sites is a form of control over the people - regardless of whether it is a pillar of faith or not. It has become a competition or an addiction to see how many times a person can visit a holy site. In fact, it has been ingrained into people’s thinking that if you visit a holy site, you are a better believer than those who have not been.

As examples, Al Masjid al Haram and the Vatican are man-made creations in which to worship God. It wasn't always like that - religion was meant to bring people together, to be practised wherever and whenever people gathered - a house, a desert, a cave, a field. God doesn’t need fancy buildings, stones or statues to hear prayers or as testaments to belief – the people do! Why?

Sadly, as religion split into many different factions, today it more often drives people apart. Again as BuJ writes, even the Shia muslims get a hard time in Saudi – so even within Islam there is friction, just as there is between different churches in Christianity.

If, as you write, you wish to stick to the ways of the Prophet, then I invite you to truly, truly find out about him and what an extraordinary man he was.

Then you would need to become more open to sharing your religion and beliefs with others whom you respect and who respect you – just as Prophet Mohammed did - if you really do wish to stick to his ways.

rosh said...

WOW NZM, such brilliant, yet simple words. I agree with everything you've said -- especially on Al Masjid al Haram and the Vatican being man-made creations in which to worship God. People focus SO much on the details and the self created divisions, they forget the most important objective of any religion -- peace, understanding, care, reaching out and acceptance of another human being. Many folks choose to 'preach' than 'practice' religion in its true sense. Nicely said NZM.

Balqis said...

@nzm

first of all take my words like they are : those of a person who is studying Islam
I am not a scholar
Secondly I can't catch where we are disrespecting non Muslims by not allowing them inside Makkah
For us Makkah is the place where we turn 5 times a day for prayer and must go at least once in a lifetime if possible for pilgrimage
It's a place of worship where Muslims can accomplish their duties to God as fixed by pillars and articles of faith
Of course going there one won't miss the chance to visit places that have historic meaning but that's not the main point
This is why I am saying that non Muslims should know first what is Islam and why it's the only valid religion
It's important to know how essential it is, free from frivolities [of course I'm telling you how it should be practiced, not how it is in reality by many of us There are people who fight to touch the black stone when is not necessary]
So let's not compare Makkah to the Vatican because it's incorrect
I don't see where we're lacking transparency in this
And I can't understand the comparison with the times of the Prophet pbuh
It was a time when Islam had just been revealed and he had the difficult task to spread it to cancel the heavy traces of politheism which oppressed the lives of the people in the Arabian peninsula
They all went there because he was staying there and was the only reliable source to explain Islam
If the purpose of a visit there for non Muslims is knowledge, there are people like Mohammed salah, Yousuf Estes, al Arifi, Bilal Philips and many others who go around the world to do so through conferences and TV programs
About Shia the only news we have on their situation in Saudia, it comes from themselves
Here is the lack of transparency on which the Saudi government should speak
We should verify if they are treated so bad as they say, and we should check also how Sunni are dealt with in Iran or Iraq
And who is separating whom from other believers ?
Is it themselves with their practices or we are the bad guys because we try to get them back to the right path asking them not to venerate human beings and introduce celebrations which were not commanded by God or His Prophet ?
I am not saying "we have our rules" with arrogance [even though it might sound so cause I'm quite of a pugnacious personality]
I am saying that each religion and culture has its schemes and there can't be a universal rule
You can't impose to us a visit to a holy place from a person who is not Muslim if that's not allowed [I am taking for granted the interpretation of scholars I respect If others have a different opinion, that's fine]
A holy place for us has a different meaning that for another person with different background
This is the same discourse of churches in the M E
If in Europe they allow mosques, I'm glad and I will not be disappointed if laws will change as it seems
I respect the rules of the others
But you can't tell me that we must have churches here because mosques are allowed in non Muslim countries
That's not respect, is arrogance

BuJ said...

maximum respect to the words of NZM!

you are a true ambassador of peace :)

there is no way i can add to what you said or present it better, but i have an example to give you.

i have a lot of italian friends (they tend to be catholics) and remember calling them when i came out of the Vatican (i was amazed!) and they told me an interesting tale that calmed me down quickly.

basically the catholic church had a lot of competition from rival churches and rome itself is not a very holy city, no prophets originated from there or even visited rome. and the catholic church was bent on recruiting as many new christians as possible, so they had to make the church as exciting and expensive-looking as possible, plus the pope at the time was more like the leader of the world, a bit like the position of the US president today.. so his seat of power had to be befitting.

anyway, when new recruits are told about the vatican and its power and extravagance, that would help them convert peacefully, and they would be eager to serve the pope without question.

again, this emphasises that all these structures are made by man for man, and have little to do with God.

bless you all, and bless u NZM :)

BuJ said...

maximum respect to the words of NZM!

you are a true ambassador of peace :)

there is no way i can add to what you said or present it better, but i have an example to give you.

i have a lot of italian friends (they tend to be catholics) and remember calling them when i came out of the Vatican (i was amazed!) and they told me an interesting tale that calmed me down quickly.

basically the catholic church had a lot of competition from rival churches and rome itself is not a very holy city, no prophets originated from there or even visited rome. and the catholic church was bent on recruiting as many new christians as possible, so they had to make the church as exciting and expensive-looking as possible, plus the pope at the time was more like the leader of the world, a bit like the position of the US president today.. so his seat of power had to be befitting.

anyway, when new recruits are told about the vatican and its power and extravagance, that would help them convert peacefully, and they would be eager to serve the pope without question.

again, this emphasises that all these structures are made by man for man, and have little to do with God.

bless you all, and bless u NZM :)

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

I really do not enjoy going to Saudi at all, and keep my trips there to a minimum.

>> Exactly why Ive never been there, and inshallah wnt till I absolutely have to. See, I do what I preach, I dont agree with the KSA in terms of policy so I dont go there.

As for your statement, well technically you're correct, but the Saudis do not own Mecca or the Holy Mosques, the King there calls himself the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, so by their own admission, they just take care of it on behalf of the Muslims, who ultimately revere it, rather than own it.

1st off, the king was FORCED to change his title by clerics who chose his title to be the most important issue they have in their country on that day. So it's not an admission of their political leaders, it was a "oh we have no better shit to bitch about today so lets screw with his majesty!"

2nd, I do agree with what you are saying in principle, but it's 2010, and a sovereign nation in this day and age owns anything within it's borders. If tomorrow, they chose to BAN all UAE citizens from Mecca, could YOU or I or ANYONE else contest it? No. What you're saying is how it SHOULD be, but it isnt how it IS. Good or bad, thats not my place to judge, the fact that Im 30 and never been there tells you a bit about how I feel about it.

A mosque ultimately is a house of God, and humans cannot lay claims to it.

Again, I agree, BUT they HAVE.

Or am I mistaken?

Not at all, your input is 100% correct in terms of principle, and how things SHOULD be, but things arent how they should be Bujassem, they are how they are.

BTW, ABIT, the Prophet never banned peaceful non-Muslims from Mecca. The ban came after he died.

True, but you must admit, in highly congested areas, such as Mecca, it is a good idea, if for no other reason than the huge amounts of people that have to be there.

The Contentious Centrist said...

"i was frisked by an ex mossad guy.."

Very curious. How did you know he was a an ex-Mossad guy? Why would an Ex-Mossad guy work as a security guard at some synagogue? It's like you expect ex-CIA agents to work as guards at a shopping mall in downtown Montana. You guys sure have some freaky hallucinations about the Mossad.

Even more curious I find your consistent avoidance of the obvious term you should apply to Saudi segregationist society: Apartheid.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Christian_Bypass.jpg

BuJ said...

hehehe CC, so you found something to comment about on this post? please note, no one criticised Zionism at all.. i thought i'd give you a rest.

I made up the ex-mossad guy up, just so I can have the pleasure of your smart observations.

However, the guy was clearly ex-army or ex-bouncer.. same thing... I guess I confused the IDF with mossad.. mia culpa.


ABIT.. for once, i actually understand what you wrote :)) hehehe it's a cause to celebrate.. so let's open some champagne and drink to the health of the Saudi King? :))

Actually, the KSA can ban all UAE citizens from travelling, but we don't always do everything we can do. For example, at least 95% of adults are capable of suicide, it doesn't mean that in a blink of an eye, the world adult population will shrink by 95%!

yes, doing these ban things is like suicide for a country.

and yes, CC, there is a non-muslim road around mecca.. i found it funny and stupid at the same time, and yes the correct word is apartheid.

however, this is saudi land that is their and they haven't invaded it. plus the natives are all muslims. so what's the problem?

if the apartheid road was built for a saudi native population, i could liken it to the roads built between jewish settlements in occupied palestine, and that is obviously a bad way to treat fellow humans.

The Contentious Centrist said...

"mia culpa"

It's "mea culpa" and be careful about using this very Catholic religious phrase. You may be accused of apostasy:

"The Nabi ‘alayhis salam said, “Whomever imitates a people, is from them!” [Sunan Abu Dawud; authentic]

BuJ said...

ah, thanks CC, but i can safely say that i know what i'm talking about when I write in Italian.

"mia culpa" literally means "my mistake" in Italian. Italians use it in everyday language without religious undertones.

I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying that's not what i meant.

as for your hadith.. oh well.. should i start quoting the Torah now?

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

For example, at least 95% of adults are capable of suicide, it doesn't mean that in a blink of an eye, the world adult population will shrink by 95%!

No good to me, I'd still be left with 4.999% morons.

I'm glad you finally understood something I wrote. I will add this day to my memory as a day that is well... forever in my memory.

Dave said...

Having been to Saudi on many occassions, and as a non-Muslim, they can gladly ban me!! I am happy not to go...

KJ said...

That's some debate you sparked in there!

I understand where both sides of the argument are coming from. On one hand you have people who want to show tolerance as well as education, on the other hand you have people who don't wanna turn holy sites into tourist attractions - and if it isn't the tourists themselves then definitely the people who would abuse the opportunity to market.

I mean, all those luxurious hotels are quite paradoxical right